tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8182098.post111078846068017023..comments2024-03-08T04:09:09.836-06:00Comments on Mixing Memory: Moving at the Speed of SpeechChrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08417970139690159046noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8182098.post-42432377196878184642009-05-07T15:07:00.000-05:002009-05-07T15:07:00.000-05:00good post :)good post :)Gold Guide for World of Warcrafthttp://www.warcraft-world.info/world-of-warcraft-gold-guide.phpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8182098.post-1110839929094589972005-03-14T16:38:00.000-06:002005-03-14T16:38:00.000-06:00Chris, I'd agree with you regarding the English wo...Chris, I'd agree with you regarding the English words, but I think the philosophical controversy is aiming something more subtle that the issue of thinking I'm speaking internally gets at.Clark Goblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03876620613578404474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8182098.post-1110837613650138152005-03-14T16:00:00.000-06:002005-03-14T16:00:00.000-06:00Oh, I forgot to add that even though we can be mis...Oh, I forgot to add that even though we can be mistaken about the content of unconscious thoughts and processes, it still makes perfect sense to say that you feel like you are speaking the words, even though it doesn't make sense to say that you are in fact speaking them. With pain, the question is, are we in pain when we feel pain? I think it makes no sense to say, "I feel pain, but I am not in pain." At least, no sense without treating "pain" as a scientific name that is different from its ordinary name.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08417970139690159046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8182098.post-1110837455311733422005-03-14T15:57:00.000-06:002005-03-14T15:57:00.000-06:00Clark, we can, and in fact do pretty much constant...Clark, we can, and in fact do pretty much constantly do, make mistakes about mental content, so long as we treat that content as unconscious. We make mistakes about our motivations (because we don't have direct access to them) and other causes of our behavior, mistakes about the content of conceptual information that was processed unconsciuosly (in the example of non-linear quadratic rules, people almost always come up with a verbalizeable rule that doesn't fit their behavior at all), etc. <BR/><BR/>The case of you feeling like you are speaking the words when you speed read probably involves highly automatized and unconscious processes which utilize conscious vision, and therefore create an impression on the conscious mind. I'm not sure exaclty why you experience it as inner speech, but that your mind mistakes what's going on is not a surprise. Consciousness spends most if it's time interpreting things that have already passed it by.<BR/><BR/>By the way, 3000 words is damn impressive!Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08417970139690159046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8182098.post-1110836811071491732005-03-14T15:46:00.000-06:002005-03-14T15:46:00.000-06:00I suspect that we may just not fully agree with Wi...I suspect that we may just not fully agree with Wittgenstein.Clark Goblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03876620613578404474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8182098.post-1110824971693798042005-03-14T12:29:00.000-06:002005-03-14T12:29:00.000-06:00Just to add to the above. The reason I'm convince...Just to add to the above. The reason I'm convinced mental speech isn't occuring at the speed of talking is that there is no way I could ever speak 3000 words a minute. Not even if I did my best to speak fast. It simply takes a minimum amount of time to pronounce each "sound" in English. Somehow my mind is able to do this with the sounds seeming right but taking less sound. The only way I can explain this is if my perception of my experiences are incorrect. i.e. my brain is adding the illusion that I said something in my inner speech that I never actually said.Clark Goblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03876620613578404474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8182098.post-1110824827702715332005-03-14T12:27:00.000-06:002005-03-14T12:27:00.000-06:00What is interesting to me Chris is what you didn't...What is interesting to me Chris is what you didn't touch upon, is when mental "speech" is much, much faster than speaking. It seems to me that mental speech is limited by the time phoenems take to be uttered. Mentally we can use a sign as a short hand to those words. So one might <I>think</I> one is "speaking" a word when <I>really</I> one is just making use of this sign. Further this approach enables one to use such signs as a shorthand to subconscious processing. I'm fairly convinced, after doing some "armchair analysis" that this occurs with me.<BR/><BR/>Consider reading. With normal (i.e. non-technical) texts I can read at about 3000 words a minute. Now my <I>perception</I> of this reading is that it is verbal. That is, it comes across as sounds in my mind just as if I were reading aloud. However as I mentioned on Richard's blog, as far back as 5th grade I noticed that both verbal and inner reading subconsciously translated words and even fragments without me being consciously aware of it. <BR/><BR/>That typically transpired with vocabulary I was unfamiliar with but which my subconscious appeared quite adept at finding a synonym for without me even being aware of it. As I mentioned I first noticed this phenomena while a kid reading alound and having the teacher stop me and tell me that I was doing it. I honestly thought I was saying one word.<BR/><BR/>Which brings me to my final point. How does this relate to the prior issue about infallibility of mental experience. If I experience reading a word like this (or saying an inner word) and can be shown that I wasn't, doesn't that offer evidence against mental infallibility? If I think I am <B>thinking</B> one word but am actually thinking an other, how do we deal with that experience?Clark Goblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03876620613578404474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8182098.post-1110798742435820772005-03-14T05:12:00.000-06:002005-03-14T05:12:00.000-06:00Having a rich vocabulary would seem to speed up th...Having a rich vocabulary would seem to speed up thought significantly. I wonder if being multilingual helps of hinders...Oliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03642107277613330487noreply@blogger.com